Friday 14 September 2012

Latin American/Caribbean Men vs Finnish Men


I have been meaning to write about this topic for a long time because I think this is a very interesting topic and highlights so well the differences between cultures. Also I have gotten a request from a fellow Trini who is also with a Finnish man to write about this. But I have been so preoccupied with other things lately that I just haven’t found the time.

Let me say up front that I do love my Trini men and that I am not trying to put down any one culture over another. It is what it is. But there is a definite culture in Latin America and the Caribbean for men to “play around” on their women. Many men, and some women too, think it is the norm and you will even hear people say “he is a dan” if a man has more than one woman. You will also hear people say stupid things like “every marriage have horn” meaning every marriage will involve some cheating. A man who is faithful, goes home early, and helps his woman around the house or with the children is a “mama man” or a “sissy”. And many men have “outside” women and children. On the other hand the wife is expected to endure this and understand that a man is a man and patiently wait at home taking care of the children and keeping house. I met a Venezuelan who said that he had half brothers and sisters by his father and that it was a common occurrence in Venezuela. When asked if his mother also had affairs he was shocked I would ask such a question. “Of course not!” was his reply, she was always a good mother and wife at home taking care of her children and the house. This Venezuelan man followed in his father’s footsteps when it came to cheating on his wife. I have also seen numerous examples of this amongst my own relatives. Many of my male relatives have cheated on their wives at some point. In some cases when the wives found out they confronted their husbands and saved their marriage and family. In other cases the wives knew and simply endured. Many of these relatives saw their own fathers do the same or were themselves outside children. And so the cycle repeated itself. I cannot understand why any man would do the same thing to his wife and children that he saw his mother and himself suffer through. Why perpetuate the pain and even leave children to be fatherless? Needless to say I don’t understand the women who would knowingly have affairs and children with married men. Then Trinidadians wonder why we have so many delinquent youths.

This idea of a man being a stud if he has many women is so entrenched that some men don’t seem to understand any other way of operating. For example, while in Trinidad for our wedding in 2005 some of our friends met some Trini youths at the guest house/hostel they were staying at. They were chatting about life and my friend said he asked them if they had a girlfriend. They replied yes they had girls. But my friend asked if they had one special girl whom they loved. He said they didn’t seem to understand the concept of just having one special girlfriend. I find it truly sad that running around is such a part of our culture that some young men can’t even understand the concept of having just one woman. They probably don’t understand what love is either. In addition to the acceptance of this sort of behaviour many women seem to stay with these cheating men out of desperation. Sometimes begging and pleading with them not to leave. I have heard of women sometimes even promising the man that he could “do what he want” if he would only stay. What causes this desperation I wonder? Is it so hard to get a man in Trinidad that we have to beg, plead and settle? Or do we women have so little self worth? And if so where does this sense of worthlessness come from?

On the other hand, in Finland, having a woman “on de side” is decidedly rare. And there is no euphemism for it. It is just called plain old cheating. Having “outside children” is also rare. And cheating is not considered a good thing for either the goose or the gander. Usually such cheating results in divorce. There doesn’t seem to be much tolerance by either female or male for cheating spouses. Don’t get me wrong, of course there are Finnish people who cheat. However, it doesn’t seem to be as prevalent or most importantly not acceptable as it is in Latin America and the Caribbean. From what I understand cheating is not culturally acceptable for men in all Scandinavian/Nordic countries. I only know of one of my Finnish friends being “an outside child” or one of many children by different women from one man. And when I tell people here that I am one such child and that I never really knew my father it sounds like something from a story or soap opera to them.

Unlike Latin and Caribbean men Finnish men are not good with sweet talk. And few of them swagger. Few of them will take you out and pay for the entire evening just so that they can get into your pants. Instead, if sex is all they want, they will ask you straight up “your place or mine?” Instead of saying they love you and pretending to try to get to know you a Finnish man will probably take a year or more before he says the words “I love you”. But when he does it will be because he means it. At first Finnish men are generally shy and unsure of themselves. They need a few drinks to get up the courage to speak to a woman and even more drinks to get up the courage to dance with one. Because most lack a flair for words, just agreeing to have a regular conversation with a strange man will give him the impression you might be interested in him. Agreeing to dance with him will give even more proof of your interest.

On the other hand Latin and Caribbean men are quick to tell you how “sweet” you look or are, how beautiful you are or how much they like you or even love you. I once met a Mexican who told me he loved me and wanted me to meet his mother after conversing and dancing with him once in a bar! They will express all this sentiment for you even if or especially if they only want to get laid. Not to mention with Latin and Caribbean men you usually never know where you really stand. Do they really love you? Does he have another woman? Does he want to marry me? These are questions constantly on a Trini woman’s mind. The day I hooked up with a Finn all those worries ceased because he was always so brutally honest about his intentions - or lack of intentions - that I knew exactly what I was getting into. If anything went wrong I knew it from the start and could blame no one but myself. The day he said I love you, many months after I had started saying it to him, I was so happy because I knew he meant it. And he has not stopped saying it since. I am so sure of my man that when we lived apart I never worried that he would stray. My grandmother told me “be careful” and to “watch him” because “some women will want to take your man even if he is married”. And I had a Ghanaian guy tell me I should leave my dog in a shelter and go with him “to know what my man is doing” rather than let him be abroad by himself where one only knows what he could be up to. But I didn’t panic I told them I was not worried about my man. And I know many other Finnish men I would say the same about.

Now as I said there are cheating Finnish men as well as cheating Finnish women. Also there are one-women men in Trinidad. My step father was one of these. And I have heard that nowadays women in Trinidad are not so docile and many are even giving as good as they get. But culture is hard to change in an instant and the general idea of unfaithfulness among men being acceptable or normal in Trinidad is still pervasive. It is simply interesting to note that what is the norm in one culture could be so alien in another. 

11 comments:

  1. Hi Danielle,
    After spending a week in Helsinki three months ago ... definitely love the place and the people. Would love to see more pictures of your travels around Finland :D
    Rishi

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    1. Hi Rishi,

      I'm glad you like my adopted homeland. I haven't been doing much traveling around Finland lately. And although I once took a photography class and loved it I am not a very good photographer. But I guess I can pull up some of my old photos and write about these places some time if you like.

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  2. Danielle, thanks so much for writing about this. My Finnish hun read it and says the part about Finns is spot on. And as a Trini I can testify to the accuracy of the part about Caribbean men. As you say, it's not that everyone in any given culture is the same. But there are definite undeniable cultural norms, some of them more dysfunctional than others. It's been a joy to discover that there exists a culture that holds men as accountable as women, and also values fidelity.

    The attitudes that Caribbean men inherit has caused me a lot of pain throughout my life. Being with my Finnish man is so refreshing after these experiences. It took me a while to understand the straight talk, as opposed to BS sweet talk. But now I cherish it and the sanity it brings. Imagine that...we have to get used to honesty...sad. Now I'm battling the urges to question and second guess my man, habits I learned as result of experiences with grossly dishonest and unfaithful men. He doesn't understand this aspect of our culture but I think reading your blog post has helped. But in general I can't believe how much trust frees you up to enjoy your relationship. It seems like such a basic part of a relationship but it is a luxury in some parts of the world.

    I want to say also that I have good friends in T&T who are genuinely good and honest men. But there are not enough of them to go around. And for some reason, these are ones who often get passed over by women. Hopefully Caribbean women (and men) can do a better job with the values of their sons and the expectations of their daughters in the future.

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  3. I enjoy reading your blogs this bit about the cultural difference of men was extremely good.

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  4. While living in Trinidad, I found the women easy to get along with, friendly, and easy to talk to. They seemed to have their feet solid on the ground, were positive about life, and capable of carrying a conversation on life, politics, religion, universe - anything. At the same time, it was REALLY difficult to find any men who I could consider friends. This was because, quite frankly, I found them to be very childish, and, well - silly! I had nothing really in common with them, and personally found all the macho boasting, stupid jokes, talking derogatory BS about women (or body parts of women!) extremely boring & meaningless. At some point I wondered if there were any intelligent men in the nation, to be honest - and I am not trying to put myself on a pedestal here, but so different was their ways of socializing. It took considerable time to get to know some guys who were "real" - and being "real" seemed not to be cool among Trini men...Talking useless BS, boasting, joking & being rude to women was cool.

    Oh well, each to their own...Judging from how popular men who behave like this, and concentrate solely (and selfishly) on they own looks etc are even among European ladies, I guess many women like such antics. All I wanted was one who liked me - and I have been happily together with her over 20 years :-) It's that simple folks - life as it was meant to be. I love her more every year we are together.

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  5. Actually, I live in Finland and is true here the people are very honest, simple and sincere. Before I have several Russian couples from St. Peter and they are a tremendous dishonest, expert in cheating you, lie. Also extremely racist, and sexist. The northern russian man not supports that women are better than him.
    The Russian man tries to hide his cheating with expensive gifts or invitation, and all the time he wishes to control your thoughts for you think that you are to blame for everything. The Finn men is extremely clear about your feelings, the Finn men have not excuses, even if you make a mistake have the courage to accept. Of course the bad or good men have in any part this world. Perhaps the infidelity and the fact that man is created superior to a woman, does not depend on a person's academic level, I think it depends on the level of life that exists in the country and besides that laws, rules, and equal opportunities for both men and women.
    I think that any woman or man NOT deserves a life of constant cheating NOT deserves any physical or psychological abuse, sometimes it's best to leave the relationship, and just move on for yourself. Remember the wonderful woman who you are!!

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  6. Actually, I live in Finland and is true here the people are very honest, simple and sincere. Before I have several Russian couples from St. Peter and they are a tremendous dishonest, expert in cheating you, lie. Also extremely racist, and sexist. The northern russian man not supports that women are better than him.
    The Russian man tries to hide his cheating with expensive gifts or invitation, and all the time he wishes to control your thoughts for you think that you are to blame for everything. The Finn men is extremely clear about your feelings, the Finn men have not excuses, even if you make a mistake have the courage to accept. Of course the bad or good men have in any part this world. Perhaps the infidelity and the fact that man is created superior to a woman, does not depend on a person's academic level, I think it depends on the level of life that exists in the country and besides that laws, rules, and equal opportunities for both men and women.
    I think that any woman or man NOT deserves a life of constant cheating NOT deserves any physical or psychological abuse, sometimes it's best to leave the relationship, and just move on for yourself. Remember the wonderful woman who you are!!

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  7. Hello there!

    Oh its such a pleasure to read this as a Caribbean person as I am planning to go to Finland to do my Masters. When I found that only University of Helsinki was the only university in Europe that had the program I really wanted, I was scared because I know no one there (I have family in other parts of Europe. Reading this blog made me feel at ease and excited about moving there and dating. I'm looking forward to more blogs from you about your experience in Finland!

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  8. You lucky girl you. I'm Caribbean too, I had a relationship with a finn man some time ago, and have heard of two other women from my community who have had finn boyfriends (one of them even married and soon enough divorced)... our relationships were awful. I can't speak for the other women but in my case, the guy was only honest when it suited him, was unbelievably thrifty, had no tact at all, easily criticized me in a harsh manner, the one time we had to be apart, he started dating other women within a week. This was no run-off-the-mill wino mind you, but an engineer working at Nokia.

    After a few months I rebelled and insulted him and a girl I found out he was dating, he never again spoke to me in a good manner. Soon afterwards I tried to put an end to it in a civilized manner, he wouldn't let me speak, tried to punch me, told me he was glad we didn't have a serious relationship and slammed a door so hardly behind me I was surprised the door didn't break. That was the last I knew about him.

    I had a good time in Finland (liked the museums, went to a nice concert, liked the climate and the clear water and other perks) BUT I can't say I had a good time with the people in Finland. Too often I saw drunk people in public places. If I tried to ask for an address or something I'd have to be really careful to whom I was adressing the question, men would either oogle or sometimes even yell back... I learned only to speak to the women.

    Once in Helsinki at a bus stop a guy in a motorized wheelchair got one of the wheels stuck while boarding, the place was filled with people (very close to the train station, the rautatieasema) and none of the finn-looking people there helped the guy. Myself (I'm not large at all), a teen from Turkey and a black guy had to push the vehicle while the finns there looked away. With the notable exception of a five year old girl who did a symbolic effort to push the wheelchair.

    I have a few other stories about finns being rude louts but I feel I've already written quite a bit, you get the idea. Perhaps you're at that stage where I was for six months, in love, one doesn't really pay attention to the defects... I hope you have better luck than I did. cheers

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    1. I ditto this last comment. I am married to a Finn man. But there is always lying and I know there has been cheating and it is pretty constan to receive rude comments for no teason. It does get tiring the total disrespect and lack of acknowledging that they are disrespectful. It's almost like a child playing dumb and pretending they know no bettet. But we are grown adults so please.

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