tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post5167426309104612865..comments2023-06-23T19:21:52.908+03:00Comments on Trini lost in Finland: The Class Divide in FinlandDanielletrinihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07563042859865543954noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-62989216987346722042012-07-27T16:34:26.419+03:002012-07-27T16:34:26.419+03:00Hi Danielle ...
Found your blog.. I was in Helsink...Hi Danielle ...<br />Found your blog.. I was in Helsinki three weeks ago ... would have been nice to link up.<br />Anyway I'll stalk your blog from now on, you can always hit me up at http://www.rishiray.com<br /><br />RishiRishihttp://www.rishiray.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-66920989531550650492012-05-20T16:22:02.342+03:002012-05-20T16:22:02.342+03:00Yes Shiv the class divide is very small and almost...Yes Shiv the class divide is very small and almost imperceptible. Most working class people enjoy a middle class life style that we working class Trinis could never afford. They get higher salaries here than you could get in most countries with the same skill. But a small number of working class people who do unskilled jobs, and as Tommi pointed out, the jobless people are the ones who make the class divide possible. And unskilled workers are scarce since all levels of education and trade schools are free and so easily accessible to all.<br /><br />Economic sociologist Pekka Räsänen from Turkku University says that Finland has always been a class society and that it is growing. Although mostly among the elderly but hes says other groups have been affected also.<br />http://yle.fi/uutiset/class_divide_growing_among_pensioners/2450272. Hopefully it will not widen too much.<br /><br />Yes all of Scandinavia is pretty similar in this system of good social safety net and high taxation making almost everyone middle class. At least Sweden and Finland and quite similar, Denmark seems to lean a bit more on the capitalist side and Norway has all that oil money. Of course there are some rich people in Finland but they are also a small group and if they get rich off of income as opposed to stocks then after heavy taxation they don't really take home an extremely large amount of money. As Tommi also pointed out.<br /><br />But yes this is one of the things I love about Finland. I believe this small class division is why there is so little crime in Finland. You will see that in countries were there is very little poverty there is usually very little crime. This is something we in Trinidad should take note of. But then the reason why this system works so well in Finland is because of the near homogeneous population as I mentioned at the beginning of the blog. In Trinidad we have too many different races, ethnic groups and religions. And they all have different agendas and all want to be on top and fight down the others. So offering everyone the same education and social services would not be supported.Danielletrinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07563042859865543954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-38832573149046519222012-05-20T14:09:35.869+03:002012-05-20T14:09:35.869+03:00Wow! This model really amazes me. No system is p...Wow! This model really amazes me. No system is perfect but the northern Europeans tend to organize things in a way that seems to benefit most of their citizens as opposed to small, powerful groups huh? My limited experience with Finns has been among the young working class. And they all have a good standard of living and can afford to travel abroad and that kind of thing. Plus they have this social safety net that I have never had. I was very struck by this. I thought about folks back home (T&T) who had similar working class jobs and the dramatically different lives they lead.Shivhttps://shewillwalk.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-20589324961914686542012-05-20T12:09:09.461+03:002012-05-20T12:09:09.461+03:00Yes it is true you don't need a Masters or PhD...Yes it is true you don't need a Masters or PhD in Finland to own a good salary and to be able to buy a house and that skilled workers are earning sometimes more than you and me. But I was just using my experiences here which is what a blog is all about. And my experience includes mostly people of higher education and the new families on my street mostly have a higher education while the ones who built the houses in the 80's don't all have a Master degree but some skill. But even so that was my point. You need some kind of education OR skill to get a decent salary. The people I was talking about do UNskilled jobs. When you have a wife and children on that kind of salary you can't afford to buy a house.<br /><br />The woman who I met who lives in city housing says that not all the city housing buildings are as bad as the one she lives in. She says that the city seems to like to put certain types of people in certain buildings and families in other buildings. I guess she was unlucky and was placed in one of the buildings where they mostly put drunks and drug users. I don't know. She wants to move to a building in Vuosaari which she says is a better housing unit. So I guess not all city housing is run down and full of unsavoury types but some are. <br /><br />I don't know anything about Helsinki City housing and how bad or good it is. I just know my experiences with people at the perhetalo in Kontula. And that's what a blog is about your own experiences. Thanks for sharing your experiences of city housing it is good to know that city housing's rep is exaggerated. <br /><br />Many people's impressions of east Helsinki are also wrong. I have had many people who visit my home in east Helsinki for the first time and remark that they never knew there were nice quiet neighbourhoods and pretty houses in east Helsinki. They thought it was all run down public housing like they see in the Finnish movie shots of places just outside the metro stations of Kontula and Mellunmäki.Danielletrinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07563042859865543954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-64144120284696480232012-05-20T12:08:41.752+03:002012-05-20T12:08:41.752+03:00This comment has been removed by the author.Danielletrinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07563042859865543954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-29184419866374641202012-05-20T01:54:59.022+03:002012-05-20T01:54:59.022+03:00As a Finn I think the best way to have money to bu...As a Finn I think the best way to have money to buy own home is to have a college degree to be a plumber or an electrician! Because you graduate young (19y) and start earning money! plumbers are paid really well... better than nurses and teachers. (Registered nurse earns 2200€/m) So in Finland you can have a very good salary without any education (garbage driver) or with a short education. Academic degree doesn't guarantee a good salary... And about people living in the city housing. I have over 30 years of experience. My mom (working class) was a single mother and now I'm a single mother myself. I have lived in four different places and I have never felt insecure. I think that the bad reputation of the city housing is seriously exaggerated. My neighbors are nice people with small salaries - academic and non-academic, police, registered nurses, reseachers, PhDs, clerks, cleaners, unemployed, immigrants, pensioners, alcoholics... and a lot of single mothers! I think I have become more open-minded when living among the "lower class" ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-10301862112609734852012-05-20T00:21:29.421+03:002012-05-20T00:21:29.421+03:00Good to hear your input and historical take on the...Good to hear your input and historical take on the Finnish class system and how it has developed or not developed since you are a Finn you know better than me.<br /><br />Yes I agree there is very little class difference in Finland because of all you just outlined. As I said it is so little I did not notice it before. But there is still some. Is it 1%? I don't know maybe. But it is growing. See:<br />http://yle.fi/uutiset/class_divide_growing_among_pensioners/2450272<br /><br />And since I started going to the perhetalo in Kontula I have noticed some class difference. The people there are not all jobless and most of them are not immigrants. Mostly they are Finnish mothers at home with the children while their husbands work in jobs such as in a warehouse or moving company etc. You don't make much money with that. <br /><br />A single family house used to be affordable to teachers, firemen and nurses but now with rising house prices in Helsinki you need to be one of those managers/ executives to afford them. I don't think you can make much more than 2000 a month if you don't have some kind of degree or skill. And you must agree that after 40% tax of even 5000 - 7000 euros a month there is still quite a large difference than if you were making 2000 or less.<br /><br />And no, you are right, a PhD degree does not guarantee you a better salary than many non degree but skilled occupations. (That's one reason I am not motivated to pursue one). You have to have a degree in the right field like a doctor, lawyer or in business to start with a higher than average salary.Danielletrinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07563042859865543954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-36193021150855318742012-05-19T22:47:01.952+03:002012-05-19T22:47:01.952+03:00I agree, but i have to say, you now talking about ...I agree, but i have to say, you now talking about the really low percentile. which is more like the non-working class + poor not (yet) well integrated immigrants. The differences in income are not that great or well correlated with degree of education here. <br /><br />The traditional working class of blue-collar workers are well organized thanks to the unions; and thanks to the fairly progressive taxation, there is not much difference how much money you make whether you have a Masters degree or a vocational training. or Ph.D for that matter. MD helps a lot of course. <br /><br />Its if you are in a manager/excecutive position that makes the difference. Or at least used ot be. And the problem is the family background appears to get inherited when there is no encouragement form home to push forwards, which is universal. <br /><br />I guess my point is: as long as you remain in the working class proper, you actually basicly already part of the so called (lower) middle class in this country (and having a Ph.D. doesnt get you out of it, in my experience...). Otherwise i agree with your observations.<br /><br />As a furhter anecdote about the working class in Finland - its most of us (well, majority) as in the 1950s this was still a very rural country and poor, with quite a small (and not particularly wealthy) middle class. its our parents that made the first steps up the ladder educationally and the country developed in giant leaps after the war. And then 1970-1980s were the years that "destroyed" the class society before it even began, with the implementation of the Nordic welfare state. there was no large middle class and proper class divide before that (or after that). well, there is/was huge divide marked by the civil war of 1918 but that's a different story. But it maybe another divide now lies ahead, i fear. <br /><br />One may disagree about what was the history of Finnish middle class probably, and i am not a historian, but this to me seems the rough picture of it. I am a child of the results of the urbanization of this country and speak from that perspective...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-84051131483852306102012-05-19T19:30:49.850+03:002012-05-19T19:30:49.850+03:00Yes Tommi you are correct and I agree with you. Th...Yes Tommi you are correct and I agree with you. The Finnish people have very few differences even with regards to education as it is quite uniformly good (unlike many nations such as USA, UK or Trinidad which is based on the broken British model). <br /><br />I alluded to this in the first paragraph when I said: "The development of the Nordic welfare model and uniform education are other factors which helped to integrate the working class into the rest of the nation by improving their standard of living." But I did not emphasise it.<br /><br />But even though everyone has access to the same education not everyone values or decides to pursue a higher education. So the major class difference in Finland becomes the level of education you receive and therefore how much money you make because of that level of education.Danielletrinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07563042859865543954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6485618689828715147.post-58519119159691666182012-05-19T09:14:11.946+03:002012-05-19T09:14:11.946+03:00Danielle, interesting post, i think one difference...Danielle, interesting post, i think one difference in the finnish class divide vs. e.g. UK is the fact that despite the fact in the end there are differences - more than we would like to see in terms of social security - i would argue that there is larger uniformity still due to similar educational backgroud: we all come from the same school system which has so far been quite equal to all. -TommiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com